Rhodiola Rosea improves hearing perception (CPAD): how?

[badhearing]

Hi guys,
this is a neurotransmitter-related matter so also rec.drugs.smart should
be interested -- and I hope these smart guys be able to shed some light
here.


--- SHORT VERSION: ---
Rhodiola Rosea (in overdose) greatly helps my CPAD: problem hearing
words in noise. I would like to understand which is the mechanism of
action for this and possibly find another more specific medication
(cheaper, or working at more normal dose, or working faster) which does
the same. See bottom for "official" description of Rhodiola Rosea
many mechanisms of action.
Thanks




--- LONG VERSION: ---
I am ADHD inattentive.

I have a perfect silence-based hearing test, however I have terrible
problems in understanding speech when there is background noise, and I
continuously need to ask people to repeat (very embarassing). I'm
practically unable to do any conversation at the disco or in noisy pubs,
and anyway have difficulties in most other social situations. This is
almost as bad as the ADD itself.

AFAIK this problem is called CPAD (central processing auditory disorder)
and often comes together with ADHD.
It is little known, but it is most likely again a neurotransmitter
problem. Treatments are not known, except that sometimes the ADHD
medications work. Not in my case: Ritalin works for ADD
(ADHD-inattentive) but not for CPAD, and deprenyl also, partly works for
ADD but not for CPAD

Now the good news: in the past, before being diagnosed ADD, I had found
by chance a supplement which would overcome the CPAD problem! (no other
positive or negative effect as far as I remember)
It was Arctic Root, also called Rhodiola Rosea, by the Swedish Herbal
Institute (I didn't try other brands). This one:
http://www.nutritiongeeks.com/arctic-root-energy-kare-40/arctic-root-energy-kare.html

But I needed a significant overdose for that effect: 24 hours before the
time in which I wanted the effect, I had to take 4 tablets. Then 12
hours before another 4 tablets, and a few hours before another 8 (eight)
tablets! Consider that the normal dose is AFAIR 1-4 tablets per day...

The bad news was the cost, and also the time: I think it was something
around 8 euro for the 16 pills, and one day of planning in advance was
needed :-(

Now: Rhodiola Rosea appears to have various mechanisms of action, e.g. see:
http://forums.bulknutrition.com/topic792.html
(also pasted below)

I would like to try understand which, among those, is the mechanism of
Rhodiola Rosea which helps CPAD, and would like to find another
more-specific medication (cheaper, faster in effect) which would do the
same.

Any neurotransmitter guru can make a guess from the writing below,
please?

A few clues:
As I wrote above, Ritalin does not work for CPAD for me though it works
for ADD. So the involved neurotransmitter might not be dopamine.

Someone says maybe Rhodiola Rosea might be an MAOI (then I might have
risked my life overdosing... but in facts I didn't notice any problem).
However now it's 9 days that I have started Deprenyl, a MAO-B inhibitor,
at 10 mg / day and I can say it does not work for CPAD.
To say it fully, at 10mg/day it does not work even for ADD, while at
1.25mg/day it did have some benefit for ADD but anyway not for CPAD.

Also 10mg/day of deprenyl are not enough for MAO-A inhibition, so I
cannot totally exclude that CPAD is MAO-A dependent or
serotonin-dependent or norepinephrine dependent. However my mother, who
seems far from depressed, also has significant CPAD and a little ADHD,
so CPAD might not be related to serotonin.


Any comments appreciated
Thank you
'badhearing'



----------------
From BulkNutrition forum - mechanisms of action of RR

"The mechanisms of action of Rhodiola rosea are many. These include
antioxidant activity, propyl endopeptidase inhibition [2, 5],
facilitation of monoaminergic activity, and opioid receptor activation.
The enzyme propyl endopeptidase metabolizes various proline-containing
neuropeptides including vasopressin, substance P, thyrotropin-releasing
hormone, and alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone, all of which may play
roles in learning and memory processes [5, 7]. Indeed, other propyl
endopeptidase inhibitors improve spatial memory in animal models [7-8].
Rhodiola rosea may also inhibit monoamine oxidase (MAO) and
catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) and facilitate the transport of
neurotransmittors in the brain [1]. Another mechanism of action is the
release of endorphins. Russian research indicates that Rhodiola rosea
induces opioid peptide biosynthesis by activating opioid receptors in
both the central and peripheral nervous system [1]."
---
The "may" in reference to MAO and COMT is a very big "may." This effect
has been theorized because rhodiola leads to various changes in
monoamine levels in rats - both increases and decreases, depending on
the area of the brain. It is much more likely that this is downstream to
other effects of rhodiola. IOW, there is no solid evidence that rhodiola
even has these effects yet. The mechanism of action is primarily related
to it's effects on various peptides.

[SDer]

Post by badhearing
Hi guys,
this is a neurotransmitter-related matter so also rec.drugs.smart
should be interested -- and I hope these smart guys be able to shed
some light here.
--- SHORT VERSION: ---
Rhodiola Rosea (in overdose) greatly helps my CPAD: problem hearing
words in noise. I would like to understand which is the mechanism of
action for this and possibly find another more specific medication
(cheaper, or working at more normal dose, or working faster) which
does the same. See bottom for "official" description of Rhodiola Rosea
many mechanisms of action.
Thanks
--- LONG VERSION: ---
I am ADHD inattentive.
I have a perfect silence-based hearing test, however I have terrible
problems in understanding speech when there is background noise, and I
continuously need to ask people to repeat (very embarassing). I'm
practically unable to do any conversation at the disco or in noisy
pubs, and anyway have difficulties in most other social situations.
This is almost as bad as the ADD itself.
AFAIK this problem is called CPAD (central processing auditory
disorder) and often comes together with ADHD.
It is little known, but it is most likely again a neurotransmitter
problem. Treatments are not known, except that sometimes the ADHD
medications work. Not in my case: Ritalin works for ADD
(ADHD-inattentive) but not for CPAD, and deprenyl also, partly works
for ADD but not for CPAD
Now the good news: in the past, before being diagnosed ADD, I had
found by chance a supplement which would overcome the CPAD problem!
(no other positive or negative effect as far as I remember)
It was Arctic Root, also called Rhodiola Rosea, by the Swedish Herbal
http://www.nutritiongeeks.com/arctic-root-energy-kare-40/arctic-root-en
ergy-kare.html
But I needed a significant overdose for that effect: 24 hours before
the time in which I wanted the effect, I had to take 4 tablets. Then
12 hours before another 4 tablets, and a few hours before another 8
(eight) tablets! Consider that the normal dose is AFAIR 1-4 tablets
per day...
The bad news was the cost, and also the time: I think it was something
around 8 euro for the 16 pills, and one day of planning in advance was
needed :-(
Now: Rhodiola Rosea appears to have various mechanisms of action, e.g.
see: http://forums.bulknutrition.com/topic792.html
(also pasted below)
I would like to try understand which, among those, is the mechanism of
Rhodiola Rosea which helps CPAD, and would like to find another
more-specific medication (cheaper, faster in effect) which would do
the same.
Any neurotransmitter guru can make a guess from the writing below,
please?
As I wrote above, Ritalin does not work for CPAD for me though it
works for ADD. So the involved neurotransmitter might not be dopamine.
Someone says maybe Rhodiola Rosea might be an MAOI (then I might have
risked my life overdosing... but in facts I didn't notice any
problem). However now it's 9 days that I have started Deprenyl, a
MAO-B inhibitor, at 10 mg / day and I can say it does not work for
CPAD. To say it fully, at 10mg/day it does not work even for ADD,
while at 1.25mg/day it did have some benefit for ADD but anyway not
for CPAD.
Also 10mg/day of deprenyl are not enough for MAO-A inhibition, so I
cannot totally exclude that CPAD is MAO-A dependent or
serotonin-dependent or norepinephrine dependent. However my mother,
who seems far from depressed, also has significant CPAD and a little
ADHD, so CPAD might not be related to serotonin.
Any comments appreciated
Thank you
'badhearing'
----------------
From BulkNutrition forum - mechanisms of action of RR
"The mechanisms of action of Rhodiola rosea are many. These include
antioxidant activity, propyl endopeptidase inhibition [2, 5],
facilitation of monoaminergic activity, and opioid receptor
activation. The enzyme propyl endopeptidase metabolizes various
proline-containing neuropeptides including vasopressin, substance P,
thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and alpha-melanocyte-stimulating
hormone, all of which may play roles in learning and memory processes
[5, 7]. Indeed, other propyl endopeptidase inhibitors improve spatial
memory in animal models [7-8]. Rhodiola rosea may also inhibit
monoamine oxidase (MAO) and catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) and
facilitate the transport of neurotransmittors in the brain [1].
Another mechanism of action is the release of endorphins. Russian
research indicates that Rhodiola rosea induces opioid peptide
biosynthesis by activating opioid receptors in both the central and
peripheral nervous system [1]."
---
The "may" in reference to MAO and COMT is a very big "may." This
effect has been theorized because rhodiola leads to various changes in
monoamine levels in rats - both increases and decreases, depending on
the area of the brain. It is much more likely that this is downstream
to other effects of rhodiola. IOW, there is no solid evidence that
rhodiola even has these effects yet. The mechanism of action is
primarily related to it's effects on various peptides.

This is one of the most interesting posts I have seen lately. I have a
similar problem with hearing perception, though my hearing is excellent
during tests. I also experience deep ear pain and these symptoms are
accompanied by visual disturbances (diplopia) and difficulty to focus.

I recently visited a doctor who advised two further medical exams, which
I am about to take this week.

I have tried Rhodiola in the past and it was very beneficial, but later
it started getting me jinged like too much dopamine perhaps? Anyway, I
had a mild improvement with cholinergics like Centrophenoxine. -acetams
make things better for a day or two, but is becomes worse the next day.

In my case, what played a vital role in establishing this condition was a
severe nervous breakdown.

[djk]

In article <***@localhost>, ***@noland.com
says...

Post by badhearing
AFAIK this problem is called CPAD (central processing auditory
disorder) and often comes together with ADHD.
It is little known, but it is most likely again a neurotransmitter
problem.

have not heard of this disorder, but I'd question if being able
to hear conversation in a disco is a disorder of any kind.
Depending on the ambient decible level I have problems hearing
conversation in loud enviroments and don't consider it a
problem. In fact, I wear ear plugs to loud events to protect my
hearing. If you take a close look, most intelligent musicians
are wearing some type of ear protection while performing, and
most fans that have a clue are also.. It's a
background/foreground issue, you want the conversation in the
foreground with a loud background while the ear/brain connection
tends to put the loud material in the foreground with the lower
volume conversation in the background, that's why most people
that try to talk at the disco are screaming at each other. It's
an attempt to make the near conversation louder than the ambient
loudness and thus bring it to foreground. Rather than taking any
substance to try to pull some brain trick why don't you find a
less noisy area to converse in or wear hearing protection and
just learn to read lips.

[SDer]

Post by djk
says...

Post by badhearing
AFAIK this problem is called CPAD (central processing auditory
disorder) and often comes together with ADHD.
It is little known, but it is most likely again a neurotransmitter
problem.

have not heard of this disorder, but I'd question if being able
to hear conversation in a disco is a disorder of any kind.
Depending on the ambient decible level I have problems hearing
conversation in loud enviroments and don't consider it a
problem. In fact, I wear ear plugs to loud events to protect my
hearing. If you take a close look, most intelligent musicians
are wearing some type of ear protection while performing, and
most fans that have a clue are also.. It's a
background/foreground issue, you want the conversation in the
foreground with a loud background while the ear/brain connection
tends to put the loud material in the foreground with the lower
volume conversation in the background, that's why most people
that try to talk at the disco are screaming at each other. It's
an attempt to make the near conversation louder than the ambient
loudness and thus bring it to foreground. Rather than taking any
substance to try to pull some brain trick why don't you find a
less noisy area to converse in or wear hearing protection and
just learn to read lips.

While you are absolutely right in using earplugs to protect hearing, what
he describes is not the same thing. I would say it's more like you feel
your *perception* of sound is not what is should be, as if something has
been disconnected from your brain. There is also a similar ocular
counterpart.

[TP]

Post by SDer
While you are absolutely right in using earplugs to protect hearing, what
he describes is not the same thing. I would say it's more like you feel
your *perception* of sound is not what is should be, as if something has
been disconnected from your brain. There is also a similar ocular
counterpart.

Researchers found out decades ago that perception of things like edges and
motion is not a brain function. It's done in the optic nerves. The
description of disconnect is apt. It's a though the processing that went on
near the ear and near the eye has been disconnected or temporarily knocked
out. The pain deep inside you feel might be the remnants of an infection
which temporarily (we hope) disrupted some synapses.

[djk]

In article <***@localhost>, ***@noland.com
says...

Post by SDer
While you are absolutely right in using earplugs to protect hearing, what
he describes is not the same thing. I would say it's more like you feel
your *perception* of sound is not what is should be, as if something has
been disconnected from your brain. There is also a similar ocular
counterpart.

here is a short quote of the poster's complaint,
"however I have terrible problems in understanding speech when
there is background noise, and I continuously need to ask people
to repeat (very embarassing). I'm practically unable to do any
conversation at the disco or in noisy pubs, and anyway have
difficulties in most other social situations."

I was speaking specifically to the complaint of being unable to
hear conversation in discos (what he discribes as "background"
noise, yet it is most likely loud enough to be "foreground") and
the noisy pub situation. the difficulties in most other social
situations may be anxiety or lack of focus. What you seem to be
talking about is something entirely different and I have no
experience with it

[badhearing]

Post by djk
says...

Djk, as everyone else has said, the problem is real.
Do you really think that I do lengthy researches and then I come here
posting a whole lot of details for something that "is not a problem" or
anyway happens to everybody?

Of course everybody has more problems hearing words at the disco, but I
wouldn't mention it if the other people appeared to have the same amount
of problems I have. Instead, while everybody else at the disco can
understand 98% of the words if they are being shout in the ears, in the
same situation I understand maybe 30%, which means that I get correctly
the meaning for 5% of the sentences hence it is useless to try to speak
to me.

Besides, I perceive the sound of the music at the disco all distorted
and mangled up like if my ears would do clipping of the waveforms and
then a lowpass filter, while this doesn't happen for other people, and
neither to me while on Rhodiola Rosea.

With "noisy pubs" I meant around 80 db (sound level generated by crowd
speaking, no music, maybe I should have said "crowded pubs") and while
at that level all the other people can speak across 5 people side to
side at a table, I can only hear the person at my left, the one at my
right and the 3 people in front of me and them (for a total of 5).

Also, trying to understand words in background noise is very stressful
and fatiguing to me. Even just staying in a noisy environment where I am
alone without the need to hear words, drains all my energy, and I often
finally get distracted (due to the nice combo with ADD).

SDer, thanks for your report: I also have tried -racetams and DMAE but
they don't work for CAPD for me (DMAE helps for ADHD though).

Also: Usually one borns with CAPD and it's genetic (definitely true for
me). The fact that it came from a nervous breakdown for you I don't know
what it can imply. Maybe treatments for you might be different. Also you
might have some chances to recover from that (also depending on how long
ago it was...)

Besides: Sue is right, sorry guys, it's not CPAD but CAPD - Central
auditory processing disorder, more rarely also called central auditory
processing delay.



Thanks
badhearing

PS:Still nobody dares to guess which one is the meaningful mechanism of
action of Rhodiola Rosea for CAPD? :-)

[Sue Neale]

\

Post by badhearing
PS:Still nobody dares to guess which one is the meaningful mechanism of
action of Rhodiola Rosea for CAPD? :-)

I did searches on it last night and only found one reference to it
assisting with hearing in stressful situations. There were a lot of
references to how it lowers stress response when taken daily or in high
doses prior to exposure to stress so maybe this is your answer. It may be
that by helping you to remain less stressed it keeps the normal pathways
available to filtering noise and processing it as you would do in a quieter
environment. Also some of the links I found did not recommend taking it in
high doses as people can get hyper or stressed more easily.

One link was the only one that I could find that said it could interact with
medications and to be careful if you were taking certain ones. I have
enclosed the link for anyone who is interested. I am not sure of its
validity but it is worth keeping it in mind if anyone is interested in
trying it.

http://rhodiolaeq.blogspot.com/

Thanks badhearing for raising this topic, it is certainly one that I would
consider trying for a variety of reasons.

Sue

[badhearing]

Post by Sue Neale

Post by badhearing
PS:Still nobody dares to guess which one is the meaningful mechanism of
action of Rhodiola Rosea for CAPD? :-)

I did searches on it last night and only found one reference to it
assisting with hearing in stressful situations. There were a lot of
references to how it lowers stress response when taken daily or in high
doses prior to exposure to stress so maybe this is your answer.

Unfortunately alcohol in medium doses does not appear to improve my
hearing (I actually didn't test my hearing while really drunk but I
would bet it does not help either).

Maybe it's the opioid receptor activation of RR which does the trick
(see my report on mechanisms of action)

What could I use to stimulate the opioid receptors, for trying this theory?
I would like something safe, like a medicine, any ideas?
I've never used recreational drugs. Maybe cannabis (rather safe) would
be worth trying. As I read here
http://www.cannabis.net/opioids/opioid-alcohol.html
it would stimulate the cannabinoid receptor which should in turn produce
opioids and stimulate the opioid receptors.
Any of you has tried cannabis and can tell me if it works without me trying?

Post by Sue Neale
http://rhodiolaeq.blogspot.com/

Thanks

Also I wanted to report a few more things:

The problem does not seem much related to the absolute volume of the
background noise, but to the amount of frequencies involved (width of
the part of spectrum being equal or louder than the voice I want to
hear). If the background is constituted by a lot of frequencies, my
ability to detect the frequencies belonging to the voice of the person
speaking drops greatly. Then s/he must speak a lot louder for me to
understand. The embarassing thing is that if I go nearer to that person
to hear better, s/he would lower the voice accordingly! Until I ask to
repeat for the 5th time...
The situation at the disco is not much worse than the situation in a pub
where the crowd voices (a relatively wide spectrum) are relatively high
compared to that of a single person speaking. Same problem when trying
to hear a person speaking in a bus.

It's like ADHD where you cannot pay attention to many things
simultaneously because you lack the energy to do that. With hearing it's
the same: many frequencies at the same time cannot be decoded by the
brain, and you also get fatigued by simply trying.



I also did an ABR test in the past (anyone else of you did it? please
report) and also passed that with flying colors. ABR is a hearing test
considered deep & meaningful by ENT people (yet they are unaware of
existence of "CAPD", the doctors I met).

The doctor puts electrodes on the arc around your head between the ears
(the same arc where normal earphones pass, on top of your head). I think
the electrodes are supposed to check the propagation of sound signals
across the head before entering into the brain.

Then they put earphones on you and make you listen a stream of "tick"
sounds, near one to the other. The "tick" sounds, sound like
Dirac-deltas and they seem to cover a wide frequency spectrum, yet they
are very short in time.

I remember as the rate of "tick" sounds accelerated a bit I couldn't
distinguish anymore one tick from the next one because they were too
near. However this surprised me because the rate was not SO high: AFAIR
I thought that if the ticks would be of narrower spectrum (such as the
one of tip of a pencil hitting a table) I would have been able to count
them.

So, while doing the test, I thought it would have revealed faulty
transmission of the signal in the nerves but instead the test resulted
ok. So I would say the problem is not in the nerves transmission but
really in inner part of the brain, where processing takes place I would
say (TP, are you saying that there is absolutely no decoding in the
inner part of the brain or just some decoding is done inside the brain
and some in the optic nerve?)

[SDer]

Post by badhearing
I also did an ABR test in the past (anyone else of you did it? please
report) and also passed that with flying colors. ABR is a hearing test
considered deep & meaningful by ENT people (yet they are unaware of
existence of "CAPD", the doctors I met).
The doctor puts electrodes on the arc around your head between the ears
(the same arc where normal earphones pass, on top of your head). I think
the electrodes are supposed to check the propagation of sound signals
across the head before entering into the brain.
Then they put earphones on you and make you listen a stream of "tick"
sounds, near one to the other. The "tick" sounds, sound like
Dirac-deltas and they seem to cover a wide frequency spectrum, yet they
are very short in time.
I remember as the rate of "tick" sounds accelerated a bit I couldn't
distinguish anymore one tick from the next one because they were too
near. However this surprised me because the rate was not SO high: AFAIR
I thought that if the ticks would be of narrower spectrum (such as the
one of tip of a pencil hitting a table) I would have been able to count
them.
So, while doing the test, I thought it would have revealed faulty
transmission of the signal in the nerves but instead the test resulted
ok. So I would say the problem is not in the nerves transmission but
really in inner part of the brain, where processing takes place I would
say (TP, are you saying that there is absolutely no decoding in the
inner part of the brain or just some decoding is done inside the brain
and some in the optic nerve?)

I had this test done a few days ago. I also had the corresponding ocular
test. Both were "absolutely normal".

However, I do have something new to add. As I have posted before, my
problem started as a hearing one and finally involved the right side of
the face, with face veins painful and kinda swollen. I have visited a
number of doctors for this and also had an MRI with zero results so far.

In the meantime, I usually feel like the right half of my head/face is
different from the other half, and still suffer the same hearing problem,
along with one-sided diplopia.

Yesterday I saw an article on temporal arteritis, and immediately said
"this is it!". I did some research and indeed, it seems like a couple of
nervous breakdowns and living in unhumanly hot conditions for a couple of
months led to temporal arteritis. I intend to visit a hopefully qualified
doctor ASAP and see what happens. I guess I will be advised to have a
blood test first and then maybe a magnetic ageography or biopsy. My age
is not compatible with the age profile where temporal arteritis is
usually found, by I see it is not that uncommon.

My guess is that what has been described so far about the loss of hearing
perception is actually a circulatory problem affecting some cranial
nerves and a sign of some future problems. I would like to hear from
other sufferers about this. Do you also have sporadic visual
disturbances, headaches or neck stiffness and pain?

[SDer]

Post by SDer

Post by badhearing
I also did an ABR test in the past (anyone else of you did it? please
report) and also passed that with flying colors. ABR is a hearing
test considered deep & meaningful by ENT people (yet they are unaware
of existence of "CAPD", the doctors I met).
The doctor puts electrodes on the arc around your head between the
ears (the same arc where normal earphones pass, on top of your head).
I

think

Post by badhearing
the electrodes are supposed to check the propagation of sound signals
across the head before entering into the brain.
Then they put earphones on you and make you listen a stream of "tick"
sounds, near one to the other. The "tick" sounds, sound like
Dirac-deltas and they seem to cover a wide frequency spectrum, yet
they are very short in time.
I remember as the rate of "tick" sounds accelerated a bit I couldn't
distinguish anymore one tick from the next one because they were too
AFAIR I thought that if the ticks would be of narrower spectrum (such
as the one of tip of a pencil hitting a table) I would have been able
to count them.
So, while doing the test, I thought it would have revealed faulty
transmission of the signal in the nerves but instead the test
resulted ok. So I would say the problem is not in the nerves
transmission but really in inner part of the brain, where processing
takes place I would say (TP, are you saying that there is absolutely
no decoding in the inner part of the brain or just some decoding is
done inside the brain and some in the optic nerve?)

I had this test done a few days ago. I also had the corresponding
ocular test. Both were "absolutely normal".
However, I do have something new to add. As I have posted before, my
problem started as a hearing one and finally involved the right side
of the face, with face veins painful and kinda swollen. I have visited
a number of doctors for this and also had an MRI with zero results so
far.
In the meantime, I usually feel like the right half of my head/face is
different from the other half, and still suffer the same hearing
problem, along with one-sided diplopia.
Yesterday I saw an article on temporal arteritis, and immediately said
"this is it!". I did some research and indeed, it seems like a couple
of nervous breakdowns and living in unhumanly hot conditions for a
couple of months led to temporal arteritis. I intend to visit a
hopefully qualified doctor ASAP and see what happens. I guess I will
be advised to have a blood test first and then maybe a magnetic
ageography or biopsy. My age is not compatible with the age profile
where temporal arteritis is usually found, by I see it is not that
uncommon.
My guess is that what has been described so far about the loss of
hearing perception is actually a circulatory problem affecting some
cranial nerves and a sign of some future problems. I would like to
hear from other sufferers about this. Do you also have sporadic visual
disturbances, headaches or neck stiffness and pain?

While I was searching on the subject, I found some more information which
I think is of great interest:
*********************************************************************
Dr. Padula has named this condition post-traumatic vision syndrome
(PTVS). Typical symptoms of PTVS include intermittent blurry vision,
perceived movement of print or stationary objects, headaches, light
sensitivity and seeing words and print run together.

"I have treated many patients with CFS who suffer from PTVS," Padula
says. "The imbalance in their visual processing systems slows everything
down and causes them to focus on a single object in the visual field at a
time. They have difficulty re-focusing, tracking objects or isolating
details."
**********************************************************************
http://www.cfids.org/archives/2001rr/2001-rr3-article02.asp

[djk]

In article <***@news2.newsguy.com>, ***@me.com
says...

Post by badhearing
Djk, as everyone else has said, the problem is real.
Do you really think that I do lengthy researches and then I come here
posting a whole lot of details for something that "is not a problem" or
anyway happens to everybody?

never said it was not a problem. I was looking for sources of
the problem, one of which may be an overload situation. Have you
tried earplugs yet? Since the response was in a 24 hour time
frame, I doubt it. Good luck.

[badhearing]

Post by djk
never said it was not a problem. I was looking for sources of
the problem, one of which may be an overload situation. Have you
tried earplugs yet? Since the response was in a 24 hour time
frame, I doubt it. Good luck.

Yes of course I also tried earplugs in the past.

They worsen the situation. Because CAPD is not an volume-overload kind
of problem, and because of how the frequency/dampening curve of earplugs is.

If you have seen the frequence/dampening curve of earplugs you will have
noticed that the frequency region of the human speech is unfortunately
among the most dampened parts (they tried to make the response curve
more flat but it's not easy).

This means that if there is non-human background noise, that one is
raised compared to the volume of the speaker I want to hear. So there
are more background frequencies to process and discard before being able
to dig to the interesting sounds, hence my hearing is even worse.

Also see my discussion on the frequencies which I just made on another
post in this thread.

[djk]

In article <***@news1.newsguy.com>, ***@me.com
says...

Post by badhearing
If you have seen the frequence/dampening curve of earplugs you will have
noticed that the frequency region of the human speech is unfortunately
among the most dampened parts (they tried to make the response curve
more flat but it's not easy).

this is simply not the case in any ear protection that I have
seen for sale in the United States. OSHA regulates the
manufacture specs of most (if not all) ear protection sold in
the United States and the specs specifically state that the
upper frequencies are dampened the most, lowest frequencies
next, and the middle (*speech*) the least. Even the ear
protection (*muffs*) that the people that direct plane traffic
on flight decks and airport tarmacs are attenuated to allow the
frequencies (middle) of speech to be the most prominent.
It's unfortunate they have not helped in your case.

[badhearing]

Post by djk
says...

Post by badhearing
If you have seen the frequence/dampening curve of earplugs you will have
noticed that

...
this is simply not the case in any ear protection that I have
seen for sale in the United States. OSHA regulates the
manufacture specs of most (if not all) ear protection sold in
the United States and the specs specifically state that the
upper frequencies are dampened the most, lowest frequencies
next, and the middle (*speech*) the least.

Look at this:
http://www.hear-more.com/musician.htm

<<<
Problem 1:
Regardless of their construction, solid earplugs produce 10 to 20
dB of high frequency attenuation. The result is that people often reject
them because they can't hear speech clearly.
Very true in my experience (I tried silicone ear plugs mostly).
BTW: have you tried yourself?
In that page there is also a frequency response graph for the normal ear
plugs and the musician ones they promote. You can see that at 4-8KHz
(probably the most important zone for speech recognition) the dampening
is 10 db more than for lowest frequencies. Maybe frequencies > 8 KHz are
dampened even more, but the lowest frequencies already impair the speech
recognition too much.

I also have a pair of the musician ear plugs they promote, I think it's
the middle one "ER-20": with those ear plugs the CAPD problem stays the
same as without plugs (and they are horrible to look at, so I don't wear
them)

[djk]

In article <***@news2.newsguy.com>, ***@me.com
says...

Post by badhearing
BTW: have you tried yourself?

I wear some type of ear protection 85% of the time I"m away from
my home. I'm a lot like you in that my hearing is so good (and
sensitive) that even normal traffic, office, and *library* noise
gives me headaches. Yes, I wear earplugs to Libraries. I use the
soft mouldable silicone plugs, they are solid yet upon absorbing
body heat are very pliable and conform (and seal) to the outer
(and some inner) ear canal well, plus offer a solid seal. They
work, I've used them for over 40 years almost daily and I have
no problem with hearing conversation, in reality I wish they
blocked voice frequencies *better*.

[m***@privacy.net]

Every reliable scientific article on this seems to indicate that it
is pure consumer fraud hype.

My recommendation: "Do NOT under any circumstances take this
supplement."

me

Post by badhearing

Post by djk
says...

Djk, as everyone else has said, the problem is real.
Do you really think that I do lengthy researches and then I come here
posting a whole lot of details for something that "is not a problem" or
anyway happens to everybody?
Of course everybody has more problems hearing words at the disco, but I
wouldn't mention it if the other people appeared to have the same amount
of problems I have. Instead, while everybody else at the disco can
understand 98% of the words if they are being shout in the ears, in the
same situation I understand maybe 30%, which means that I get correctly
the meaning for 5% of the sentences hence it is useless to try to speak
to me.
Besides, I perceive the sound of the music at the disco all distorted
and mangled up like if my ears would do clipping of the waveforms and
then a lowpass filter, while this doesn't happen for other people, and
neither to me while on Rhodiola Rosea.
With "noisy pubs" I meant around 80 db (sound level generated by crowd
speaking, no music, maybe I should have said "crowded pubs") and while
at that level all the other people can speak across 5 people side to
side at a table, I can only hear the person at my left, the one at my
right and the 3 people in front of me and them (for a total of 5).
Also, trying to understand words in background noise is very stressful
and fatiguing to me. Even just staying in a noisy environment where I am
alone without the need to hear words, drains all my energy, and I often
finally get distracted (due to the nice combo with ADD).
SDer, thanks for your report: I also have tried -racetams and DMAE but
they don't work for CAPD for me (DMAE helps for ADHD though).
Also: Usually one borns with CAPD and it's genetic (definitely true for
me). The fact that it came from a nervous breakdown for you I don't know
what it can imply. Maybe treatments for you might be different. Also you
might have some chances to recover from that (also depending on how long
ago it was...)
Besides: Sue is right, sorry guys, it's not CPAD but CAPD - Central
auditory processing disorder, more rarely also called central auditory
processing delay.
Thanks
badhearing
PS:Still nobody dares to guess which one is the meaningful mechanism of
action of Rhodiola Rosea for CAPD? :-)

[SDer]

You don't seem to know much about supplements do you?

Post by m***@privacy.net
Every reliable scientific article on this seems to indicate that it
is pure consumer fraud hype.
My recommendation: "Do NOT under any circumstances take this
supplement."
me

Post by badhearing

Post by djk
says...

Djk, as everyone else has said, the problem is real.
Do you really think that I do lengthy researches and then I come here
posting a whole lot of details for something that "is not a problem" or
anyway happens to everybody?
Of course everybody has more problems hearing words at the disco, but I
wouldn't mention it if the other people appeared to have the same amount
of problems I have. Instead, while everybody else at the disco can
understand 98% of the words if they are being shout in the ears, in the
same situation I understand maybe 30%, which means that I get correctly
the meaning for 5% of the sentences hence it is useless to try to speak
to me.
Besides, I perceive the sound of the music at the disco all distorted
and mangled up like if my ears would do clipping of the waveforms and
then a lowpass filter, while this doesn't happen for other people, and
neither to me while on Rhodiola Rosea.
With "noisy pubs" I meant around 80 db (sound level generated by crowd
speaking, no music, maybe I should have said "crowded pubs") and while
at that level all the other people can speak across 5 people side to
side at a table, I can only hear the person at my left, the one at my
right and the 3 people in front of me and them (for a total of 5).
Also, trying to understand words in background noise is very stressful
and fatiguing to me. Even just staying in a noisy environment where I am
alone without the need to hear words, drains all my energy, and I often
finally get distracted (due to the nice combo with ADD).
SDer, thanks for your report: I also have tried -racetams and DMAE but
they don't work for CAPD for me (DMAE helps for ADHD though).
Also: Usually one borns with CAPD and it's genetic (definitely true for
me). The fact that it came from a nervous breakdown for you I don't know
what it can imply. Maybe treatments for you might be different. Also you
might have some chances to recover from that (also depending on how long
ago it was...)
Besides: Sue is right, sorry guys, it's not CPAD but CAPD - Central
auditory processing disorder, more rarely also called central auditory
processing delay.
Thanks
badhearing
PS:Still nobody dares to guess which one is the meaningful mechanism of
action of Rhodiola Rosea for CAPD? :-)

[unknown]

Post by SDer
While you are absolutely right in using earplugs to protect hearing, what
he describes is not the same thing. I would say it's more like you feel
your *perception* of sound is not what is should be, as if something has
been disconnected from your brain. There is also a similar ocular
counterpart.

For noisy areas you might consider a mild hearing aid(s) with
directional mic array. Setting the gain to a negative value (and a
tight ear mold) would protect your hearing and allow you have more
control of what you really want to hear.

Mike

[Alan Pollock]

Post by badhearing
I have a perfect silence-based hearing test, however I have terrible
problems in understanding speech when there is background noise, and I
continuously need to ask people to repeat (very embarassing). I'm
practically unable to do any conversation at the disco or in noisy pubs,
and anyway have difficulties in most other social situations.

Thank you for pointing this out. I've had what you describe above for several
years now. When I first began to notice it, I took a normal hearing test and
came out with flying colors, but whenever there's ambient noise I have trouble
hearing words within what appears to me as a morass of sound.

Along with others who have mentioned it here, I also have the distinct
impression that my *processing* is at fault, rather than my actual hearing.

Thanks for focusing some light on this. Since CPAD doesn't google well, looks
like it's time for some creative searching. Nex

[Sue Neale]

Post by Alan Pollock

Post by badhearing
I have a perfect silence-based hearing test, however I have terrible
problems in understanding speech when there is background noise, and I
continuously need to ask people to repeat (very embarassing). I'm
practically unable to do any conversation at the disco or in noisy pubs,
and anyway have difficulties in most other social situations.

Thank you for pointing this out. I've had what you describe above for several
years now. When I first began to notice it, I took a normal hearing test and
came out with flying colors, but whenever there's ambient noise I have trouble
hearing words within what appears to me as a morass of sound.
Along with others who have mentioned it here, I also have the distinct
impression that my *processing* is at fault, rather than my actual hearing.
Thanks for focusing some light on this. Since CPAD doesn't google well, looks
like it's time for some creative searching. Nex

Try googling CAPD. It is known by this and there are several good websites
and studies done on it depending on what you want to learn about it. It is
common in autistics and ADHD and is believed to be caused by fewer neural
pathways to process information. It can also be caused in infants with
chronic otitis media who in the important months for learning to
differentiate sounds have reduced hearing. It has nothing to do with
hearing per se but with how the information is/isn't processed. With CAPD
the information comes in and sufferers have to concentrate to process the
information in everyday life. A simple thing like a child in a classroom
having to try to listen to a teacher while paper is rustling, feet are
moving, pencils being sharpened is extrememly stressful for them.

I looked in as my son who was dx'd as CAPD when he was three has recently
been dx'd with profound unilateral deafness, he is also autistic :)

With CAPD, stress plays a large factor on the ability to process language
and noise also, it is totally different to a HL and tends to be lifelong
although I would imagine that after not hearing well and getting HA's it
would be a similar effect. I hope this helps :)

Sue

[Alan Pollock]

Post by Sue Neale
Try googling CAPD. It is known by this and there are several good websites

Thank you, Sue. That one worked. Nex